Once again, a very well thought out option on a TK tie,which may become as well used and as popular, as your S.Bowline. Thank you for all your excellent work, and your willingness to share with others, and to your patient model as well! Nice work~
So, here's my full comment on your youtube-video,I try to focus on the attachment points, the tsuris and their risks only, not on your TK, as this doesn't really belong here.
We did your long-version-TK and all your shown tsuris at our local shibari group last Monday. (Just as a sidenote: We meet once a week. We received training by Osada Steve, Hajime Kinoko and other. So we're not beginners and we certainly not want to start a flme war over which style is the best :-)) I mean no offence, I simply want to share my point of view on your tsuris.
The one shown at 0:39 is a standard attachment point and feels quite ok and "safe".
Your face-up suspension at 0:24 is one I wouldn't recomment to anyone! There is NOTHING to secure the attachment line, it moves uncontrollable and it tears the wraps all over the chest (I had the upper wrap somewhere over my breasts...). I tried to move slowly to one side to see whats happening, just in case.
Never ever should the tied-up person be able to move such long ways on their own. You're risiking severe damages to the nerves (esp. radial nerve). In addition, think about force when falling (even slowly!) for 15 cm in one direction.
0:57: Attachting the main line on the chest-side of the cinch (or knot, as you call it) pushes the cinch directly where it should NOT be. Somewhere there, the radial nerve is located and nobody knows where it is. Again, there's severe risk of damaging it. Besides, there is heavy and painful pressure against the shoulder.
1:24: was unbearable for me. There's been tension on the cinch line under the arm, it pulled out a few centimeters and pressing hard against my arm. We had to immediatly stop it
Both face-down suspension felt like I simply could drop out of them, especially when the shoulder ropes where temporarily removed (we tried it with and without to see if there'd be any difference))
2:26: The pressure on the chest would be bearable, whereas the pressure under the arm was not. This could be subjective, yes. Again, there's pressure near the nerve.
2:53: Not bearable for me. I got bruises immediatly. Pressure everywhere - chest, arms, under the arms. Especially where the cinch-knots are placed. They just push, push push...
Sorry that it took a while to answer your questions from youtube. :-)
Shoilein, thanks for your detailed comments. I've just had a chance to do some test ties specifically around the issues you raise, but first, let me give a few general comments:
At the highest level, I think you may be expecting more from this tie than it is designed to do; the ropes over the shoulders are not intended, by themselves, to be structural or load bearing -- they exist only to facilitate the round turns on the front that lock the under-arm ropes to the over-arm wraps. So this should be thought of as the functional equivalent of a basic TK2; if you need support over the shoulders, additional stabilization, etc, as you would have with e.g. an OS TK3, you need to add more rope on top of either of these designs.
There are also two specific things it sounds like may have been going wrong for you, that each feed in to several of the problems you mentioned.
First, be sure that the under-the-arm ropes are sufficiently tensioned; with a normal TK, it is often emphasized that the kannuki should be made very loose; that is NOT the case here -- rather they should be tensioned about the same as the rest of the tie, maybe even a bit more than the over-the-arm wraps. This will go against all your instincts if you are used to (properly) tying other TKs.
Second, it is critical that the top wrap be positioned such that the under-the-arm rope can go out and back under the arm in more or less a straight line, without curving up into the armpit. If you are someone who normally needs the top wrap positioned above the join between arm and torso, none of these variations are going to work for you without substantial modification. In my experience so far it's rare to run across someone who can't have the wraps low enough for this to work, but you may be the exception -- every body is different.
Now, in terms of your specific concerns:
With the sliding back and forth for the face-up suspension, this makes sense to me in theory, since there is nothing structurally preventing the support lines from moving along the front of the harness; but in practice the bottom I just tested with didn't notice any instability, and couldn't move it much even trying to deliberately. It's possible this depends somewhat on the shape/strength of the bottom, but I also wonder if this relates to the first issue, of looseness, above; if the load was on the arms rather than the chest, that would provide a wider base of rotation and less stability. Regardless, whatever you would normally do to combat this problem in a TK2 should equally well apply here (and I'd be interested to hear what that is).
With regard to attaching to the inner wraps for side suspension, the under-the-arm ropes should not be putting any noticeable pressure on the inside of the arm there; in my test just now, at the point where they stopped touching the arm at all, they were being pulled away from the torso by only about 1cm. If you've got a very large gap between the torso and the rope where it passes under the arm, something is wrong. Also, again, the top wrap should be positioned low enough that any inside pressure on the arm would be on the bicep, not in the armpit.
With the 4-point sideways attachment, pressure on the arm may be a bit more of an issue, less because there is more pressure from the under-the-arm rope than because loading the over-the-arm rope squashes the arm up again it. Even so, this should be minimal; in my tests, the rope marks left on the inner arm looked more like my bottom had been lying on a pile of rope, than suspended by it. However, that one may not work for everybody; I could see it being a problem particularly for anyone whose arms are fairly large in diameter relative to their torso.
In both cases, as I mentioned in the video about tying the long variation, popping off the shoulder rope on the top side in sideways suspension is frequently necessary, in my experience -- that shouldn't in any way compromise the structure of the tie; if you need shoulder support (for instance to prevent the tie from slipping down the torso), you need to add something else specifically for that purpose.
With regard to face-down, otherwise, I can only re-emphasize that there should not be any pressure on the armpit; if there is, the top wrap is placed too high for this technique to work, safely or at all.
I hope that helps. If this still doesn't make sense / doesn't seem to work for you, maybe we could set up a video Skype call or something.
Sounds good, I'll look forward to hearing your results!
In these videos, it is 6mm hemp, which is what I've used most in testing both variations. The short variation I've also tied quite a bit with my new 3/16" polyester kit, with good results despite the rope being very slippery.
Great TK.
Been using it for side and face-down suspensions on a male bunny (who weighs significantly more than a petite lady) and it is the most comfortable chest harness ever. The repartition of tension makes it suitable for so much, and longer play.
It takes 27 meters rope, and quite some time, but this in turn taught me to use this time to set both of us in rope-space. I am of course lucky to have a patient rope-loving bunny.
Thank you so much for your videos.
Cheers,
F.
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Once again, a very well thought out option on a TK tie,which may become as well used and as popular, as your S.Bowline. Thank you for all your excellent work, and your willingness to share with others, and to your patient model as well! Nice work~
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The ideas in these ties are wonderfully explained and will definitely let you know if I come up with a few variations of my own.
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So, here's my full comment on your youtube-video,I try to focus on the attachment points, the tsuris and their risks only, not on your TK, as this doesn't really belong here.
We did your long-version-TK and all your shown tsuris at our local shibari group last Monday. (Just as a sidenote: We meet once a week. We received training by Osada Steve, Hajime Kinoko and other. So we're not beginners and we certainly not want to start a flme war over which style is the best :-)) I mean no offence, I simply want to share my point of view on your tsuris.
The one shown at 0:39 is a standard attachment point and feels quite ok and "safe".
Your face-up suspension at 0:24 is one I wouldn't recomment to anyone! There is NOTHING to secure the attachment line, it moves uncontrollable and it tears the wraps all over the chest (I had the upper wrap somewhere over my breasts...). I tried to move slowly to one side to see whats happening, just in case. Never ever should the tied-up person be able to move such long ways on their own. You're risiking severe damages to the nerves (esp. radial nerve). In addition, think about force when falling (even slowly!) for 15 cm in one direction.
0:57: Attachting the main line on the chest-side of the cinch (or knot, as you call it) pushes the cinch directly where it should NOT be. Somewhere there, the radial nerve is located and nobody knows where it is. Again, there's severe risk of damaging it. Besides, there is heavy and painful pressure against the shoulder. 1:24: was unbearable for me. There's been tension on the cinch line under the arm, it pulled out a few centimeters and pressing hard against my arm. We had to immediatly stop it
Both face-down suspension felt like I simply could drop out of them, especially when the shoulder ropes where temporarily removed (we tried it with and without to see if there'd be any difference))
2:26: The pressure on the chest would be bearable, whereas the pressure under the arm was not. This could be subjective, yes. Again, there's pressure near the nerve. 2:53: Not bearable for me. I got bruises immediatly. Pressure everywhere - chest, arms, under the arms. Especially where the cinch-knots are placed. They just push, push push...
Sorry that it took a while to answer your questions from youtube. :-)
Reply to this comment
Shoilein, thanks for your detailed comments. I've just had a chance to do some test ties specifically around the issues you raise, but first, let me give a few general comments:
At the highest level, I think you may be expecting more from this tie than it is designed to do; the ropes over the shoulders are not intended, by themselves, to be structural or load bearing -- they exist only to facilitate the round turns on the front that lock the under-arm ropes to the over-arm wraps. So this should be thought of as the functional equivalent of a basic TK2; if you need support over the shoulders, additional stabilization, etc, as you would have with e.g. an OS TK3, you need to add more rope on top of either of these designs.
There are also two specific things it sounds like may have been going wrong for you, that each feed in to several of the problems you mentioned.
First, be sure that the under-the-arm ropes are sufficiently tensioned; with a normal TK, it is often emphasized that the kannuki should be made very loose; that is NOT the case here -- rather they should be tensioned about the same as the rest of the tie, maybe even a bit more than the over-the-arm wraps. This will go against all your instincts if you are used to (properly) tying other TKs.
Second, it is critical that the top wrap be positioned such that the under-the-arm rope can go out and back under the arm in more or less a straight line, without curving up into the armpit. If you are someone who normally needs the top wrap positioned above the join between arm and torso, none of these variations are going to work for you without substantial modification. In my experience so far it's rare to run across someone who can't have the wraps low enough for this to work, but you may be the exception -- every body is different.
Now, in terms of your specific concerns:
With the sliding back and forth for the face-up suspension, this makes sense to me in theory, since there is nothing structurally preventing the support lines from moving along the front of the harness; but in practice the bottom I just tested with didn't notice any instability, and couldn't move it much even trying to deliberately. It's possible this depends somewhat on the shape/strength of the bottom, but I also wonder if this relates to the first issue, of looseness, above; if the load was on the arms rather than the chest, that would provide a wider base of rotation and less stability. Regardless, whatever you would normally do to combat this problem in a TK2 should equally well apply here (and I'd be interested to hear what that is).
With regard to attaching to the inner wraps for side suspension, the under-the-arm ropes should not be putting any noticeable pressure on the inside of the arm there; in my test just now, at the point where they stopped touching the arm at all, they were being pulled away from the torso by only about 1cm. If you've got a very large gap between the torso and the rope where it passes under the arm, something is wrong. Also, again, the top wrap should be positioned low enough that any inside pressure on the arm would be on the bicep, not in the armpit.
With the 4-point sideways attachment, pressure on the arm may be a bit more of an issue, less because there is more pressure from the under-the-arm rope than because loading the over-the-arm rope squashes the arm up again it. Even so, this should be minimal; in my tests, the rope marks left on the inner arm looked more like my bottom had been lying on a pile of rope, than suspended by it. However, that one may not work for everybody; I could see it being a problem particularly for anyone whose arms are fairly large in diameter relative to their torso.
In both cases, as I mentioned in the video about tying the long variation, popping off the shoulder rope on the top side in sideways suspension is frequently necessary, in my experience -- that shouldn't in any way compromise the structure of the tie; if you need shoulder support (for instance to prevent the tie from slipping down the torso), you need to add something else specifically for that purpose.
With regard to face-down, otherwise, I can only re-emphasize that there should not be any pressure on the armpit; if there is, the top wrap is placed too high for this technique to work, safely or at all.
I hope that helps. If this still doesn't make sense / doesn't seem to work for you, maybe we could set up a video Skype call or something.
Best, Chris
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Hi Chris
I'll try again on Monday, considering all you comments. Let's see what happens then :-)
By the way: What ropes do you use?
Best, Barbara
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Sounds good, I'll look forward to hearing your results!
In these videos, it is 6mm hemp, which is what I've used most in testing both variations. The short variation I've also tied quite a bit with my new 3/16" polyester kit, with good results despite the rope being very slippery.
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This is the kind of instruction I was looking for, your AWESOME! I thank you so much at least now I won't run the risk of hurting my rope bunny.
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Thank you, you have answered many questions I had.
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Darn, the clip has been removed... Try vimeo for your uploads, also free and less restrictive.
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Great TK. Been using it for side and face-down suspensions on a male bunny (who weighs significantly more than a petite lady) and it is the most comfortable chest harness ever. The repartition of tension makes it suitable for so much, and longer play. It takes 27 meters rope, and quite some time, but this in turn taught me to use this time to set both of us in rope-space. I am of course lucky to have a patient rope-loving bunny. Thank you so much for your videos. Cheers, F.
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